Amazing luck

Home Forums Any Other Business Amazing luck

This topic contains 12 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Mollers 1 year, 10 months ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #4550 Reply
    rich_uk
    rich_uk
    Participant

    Shame it’s bad luck.

    You may remember the problems I had with my Polo; 4 months off the road etc. Well, now it’s the turn of my 120d. It broke down last week and I finally got it to a garage that knew their stuff. Problem? The timing chain has snapped. This was on Watchdog a few weeks ago as it’s becoming a common problem. The bill to repair depends on the damaged caused which cannot by seen until the engine is taken out. However a typical bill is £5000.

    Yep, you read that right. The car is now off to BMW who have said that due to it always being in the dealer network, that they will offer a considerable goodwill gesture. No idea how much yet but I’m expecting a bill between £1.5k and £4k. The car has done 67k and came out of approved warranty 3 months ago.

    I’m of the view that the timing chain should last a lifetime esp as it’s an engine out job to replace. The question is, do you think I’ll be able to negotiate with BMW and get them to contribute more if I push them or do you think I should accept their first offer.

    Any advice based on experience would be gratefully received. As would a cheque for £4k… :)

  • #4551 Reply
    The Colonel
    The Colonel
    Participant

    Ouch. This does seem to be peculiar to the N47 engine. Is it because there are just so many of the blighters on the road (is it any iteration, or just in 177bhp guise?) that any compilation of stories of chains snapping makes it “seem” much worse than it is, or is it more of an inherent problem with this engine, and its chain?

    Anyway, to your question, I doubt that any offer of a contribution from BMW would be presented as a “take it now” opportunity, or that they’d go back on it just because you ask for more of a contribution from them, so I’d be inclined to ask for more, if it was me.

    "Who do you think is the most capable?"

    "Capable of what?"

  • #4552 Reply
    artill
    artill
    Participant

    Sorry to hear of further problems.

    A friend had a Peugeot 807 2.2. hdi which snapped its timing belt 2 years out of warrenty but well before it was due to be changed. It destroyed the engine. Peugoet offered a reconditioned engine and paid for everything. I would hope BMW wouldnt be much less generous, and if their first offer is poor i cant see you have much to lose by asking for more.

    Oh, and when its fixed, swap it!

  • #4553 Reply
    rich_uk
    rich_uk
    Participant

    Hi Artill,

    That’s interesting to know, thanks. And yes, I will look at selling it if I actually get it back! Although it will probably turn into the worlds most reliable car once I have…. :/

  • #4554 Reply
    rich_uk
    rich_uk
    Participant

    Colonel, it effects 2007-2011 2 litre BMW diesel engines. If you google ‘BMW timing chain watchdog’, you can see that it’s a problem and BMW do not want to acknowledge it. As mine has occurred after the programme, it’ll be interesting to see their response.

    I’ll let you know!

  • #4555 Reply
    liquidgold
    liquidgold
    Participant

    Hi Rich. I would make a complete nuisance of myself until BMW have rectified the fault entirely st their cost. My experience with customer services in Bracknell has always been positive, but on the 2 occasions I have needed their help, the right answer only came after a bit if a fight.

    My advice is don’t allow yourself to be fobbed off (which may be the default response), and persevere in a firm but friendly way until the right outcome is reached!!!!

    Good luck mate, hope it works out ok

    New, improved and a stone lighter. Where's the nearest Atom dealer?

  • #4580 Reply
    The Colonel
    The Colonel
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>rich_uk wrote:</div>Colonel, it effects 2007-2011 2 litre BMW diesel engines. If you google ‘BMW timing chain watchdog’, you can see that it’s a problem and BMW do not want to acknowledge it. As mine has occurred after the programme, it’ll be interesting to see their response.<p sab=”157″>

    <p sab=”158″>I’ll let you know!

    Thanks Rich. I saw the Watchdog programme. What I was getting at is, assuming it is ALL N47 engines, in all cars (16d, 18d, 20d, 23d) there must be, comfortably, 2 million, or more, of the things in circulation so, are there a lot of these engines going pop or, relative to their quantity, a small amount? Is there something wrong with the engine (design and/or manufacture), or is this just the law of averages playing out?

    That’s no comfort to you of course and, if you are so inclined to follow LG’s advice above, then if your car is 57 plate, or newer, you will have the Statute of Limitations on your side, warranty expired or not (58 plate or newer in Scotland – 07/08 plate depending on date purchased). That is where expressions like “of satisfactory quality” and “fitness for purpose” really mean something, especially if, as you say, the car has been cared for within the BMW network.

    "Who do you think is the most capable?"

    "Capable of what?"

  • #4581 Reply
    rich_uk
    rich_uk
    Participant

    Hi Colonel et al,

    You’re right about the engine being in the millions but in terms of those going wrong, BMW have the best indication and they’re not disclosing the extent of the issue and the cynic would say this is for a very good, obvious, reason.
    I spoke to the dealer I took my car to today. Nice lady who I’ve dealt with before. She told me the cost of stripping an engine and putting it back together was 16hrs labour… Which is £2500, excluding parts. She stated that although this dealer had not had many chain failures, she was aware that a Birmingham dealer had had ‘lots’.
    I’ll find out Thursday what the goodwill gesture will be from BMW but she reiterated to me again that I will pay something. The logic she has been given is that I should not be advantaged over someone who paid for an extended warranty (£650 for the year for me) so I should expect the minimum I’ll be charged is £650+£200 (claim excess). It’s an interesting logic but flawed in my view.
    If I had bought the warranty, I still wouldn’t have expected to pay any excess. Furthermore, if I should pay £650 because those who bought I warranty already have, then I should expect a year’s warranty.

    That’s my current thought process and I’ll update Thursday! I think I might pay the bill with a ‘without prejudice’ comment on it and then see if I have the will power and cahoonas to take BMW through the small claims court….

  • #4583 Reply
    The Colonel
    The Colonel
    Participant

    I don’t think it would be cynical at all and, I do not believe, BMW, or any large manufacturer, would necessarily find it cynical for anyone to suggest that they are covering themselves by not being upfront. It’s a natural reaction, especially if the alternative leaves you on the hook for some very big bills.

    The logic she has been given is that I should not be advantaged over someone who paid for an extended warranty (£650 for the year for me) so I should expect the minimum I’ll be charged is £650+£200 (claim excess). It’s an interesting logic but flawed in my view.

    Flawed? A little more than somewhat. It’s borderline criminal. It is a criminal offence, you should know this copper, to diminish the legal rights of a party to a contract and that would almost certainly include suggesting that, for example, the absence of a warranty would close off all other avenues to a full and satisfactory resolution. OK, she didn’t actually say that, but keep an ear out for that sort of thing. Beyond that:

    1) They shouldn’t be comparing you to any other customer (real or imagined).
    2) You are already at a disadvantage. The whole point is to get you back to a point where everything was normal. At no point are you, or should you be, seeking advantage. Christ on a bike, they should know this stuff!

    If I had bought the warranty, I still wouldn’t have expected to pay any excess. Furthermore, if I should pay £650 because those who bought I warranty already have, then I should expect a year’s warranty.

    I’ve never understood excesses. Really don’t. Coughing up a further 30% on top of your premium, just to get them going? Bizarre??? It’s an interesting point you make though Rich. Should you expect a warranty? Well, there is a school of thought that if you contribute “something” to a repair or replacement, then you should have a legal guarantee with the component that you have purchased. The issue, with that though, is that with an engine it would be very difficult to pin any future failure (and within the following 12 months) on being a failure of the same component. It’s probably not worth the hassle. If you did effect a fully funded repair, it would be suicidal of them to turn their back on it should it go pop in the following 12 months.

    I think I might pay the bill with a ‘without prejudice’ comment on it and then see if I have the will power and cahoonas to take BMW through the small claims court….

    I don’t think you need to be well endowed in the ball sac department, or have the stamina of a well buff Roman Gladiator, to take this through the small claims court. It is an inexpensive low-risk way of trying to get redress. Despite the tabloid stink, judges are, by and large, truly indifferent and are no more likely to favour a BMW dealer, because they are associated with BMW, than they are to look down upon you just because you probably fail to wash.

    If you do go down that route though, and the “without prejudice” point is a good one, you must be doing it with the dealer that you bought the car from (not BMW, or any other dealer/repairer), and you should, in writing, give them one final chance to fix the car, without any payment from you, first. That could take a few weeks to get to that point, but if you do it by e-mail you may also find that the “fuck off” e-mail comes back fairly quickly, so away you go.

    Sorry, Rich, if you know all that already, I just think it is worthwhile others knowing. Anyway, it may not come to that, but go stick it to the man.

    "Who do you think is the most capable?"

    "Capable of what?"

  • #4591 Reply
    rich_uk
    rich_uk
    Participant

    Quick update…

    Cheers for your views Colonel. I’m unsure exactly who I’ll take to court as BMW seem to think it’ll be them rather than the dealership as it was a tri-agreement type thing. We’ll see…

    BMW finance said I can send the car back but I’ll still have to pay for the repairs as per the contract. I’m leaving that on the back burner for the moment.

    Spoke to my local dealership that have my car today. They were supposed to call yesterday but didn’t because they got an offer back from BMW and they were not happy! So it’s gone back to another person in BMW for another attempt.

    The numbers at the moment? Well, it’ll be £5.5k for the timing chain (and damaged it caused) repair. But… They discovered the flywheel was leaking and the clutch severely worn. That’ll be an extra £1400. First offer from BMW? £1800…

    Any bets on their final offer? I’ll go first at £4k…

  • #4592 Reply
    rich_uk
    rich_uk
    Participant

    Well, it’s been sorted and the car will be ready Tuesday.

    After the derisory £1800 offer, I rang every BMW dept possible; finance, customer services; the dealership I bought the car from and the dealership the car is with.

    It may have helped as the revised offer from BMW was £5300 towards the bill, leaving me with £1600. Essentially, they agreed to pay for 100% of the parts prices and 50% of the labour.

    Could I have got more? Possibly a bit, but not much more. I’m quite certain that BMW would have insisted on me paying a reasonable chunk. Small claims may find in my favour but I doubt that I would have been awarded the full amount. So I accepted it. If I’d been told at the start that I had a £1600 repair bill, I would have been hacked off but the simple psychology of being given £7000 bill to start with makes it seem quite good!

    I’m probably going to sell it quite soon or at the very least, purchase a warranty… :/

  • #4595 Reply
    The Colonel
    The Colonel
    Participant

    Rich so long as you’re satisfied, with he final outcome, then that is all that matters. That and the car being mobile again. Ironically, I reckon, with no more than regular servicing the car will probably run forever now.

    It’s all moot for you now, but just to pick up on a few of your previous points (for anyone else that might be interested);

    I’m sorry, I forgot about the finance route. In that case a contract is formed with the finance company, not the dealership you sat in while you signed the paperwork. The dealer is little more than an agent, of the finance company in this case, facilitating the supply of a vehicle to them to sell to you.

    BMW seem to think it’ll be them (to go to court) rather than the dealership as it was a tri-agreement type thing

    It may well be a tri-agreement, between them, but that is where it stops. It only means that BMW, the finance company, and the dealer are all looking at each other wondering which of them is going to come up with the goods. Privity of contract exists only between the vendor and the patron (there are exceptions, of course, but they are extremely rare, in a simple contact, and the existence of a third-party is always, I believe, with the patron).

    I’m not going to tell you are wrong not to push on with it. That’s up to you but given what you tell us about the care of the car I doubt, if finding in your favour, a judge would split an award. If, for example, BMWFinCO could demonstrate that you’d missed a service or had one carried out out-of-time, then they may be inclined to give them some benefit as performance of the engine is, to a certain degree, determined by the care it receives.

    I find it interesting, however, that they were able to tell you it was 16 hours of labour. Either this was BS (to support the cost and to make you, simple owner, “convinced” that it is reasonable), or this has been clearly defined by BMW. That then begs the question, when did they determine this? When they first designed and built the car, in which case it was a potential big liability from the off (supporting what the independent mechanic said on Watchdog), or they have determined it since the “problem” arose in which case they were very sloppy and should probably be made to suck it up*.

    I know that Audi pre-determine the periods of time assigned to a given “known” job, on any given car, so that they can compensate dealers for warranty work, among other things. I would be surprised if BMW didn’t conduct a similar practice, and would be stunned if they hadn’t worked out how long it would take to, at least, swap out a timing chain on any engine of theirs, not least one in the most inaccessible part of the engine.

    *It still remains to be seen how “big” a problem it is. Since you started this thread I have discovered that I “know” eleven people, including you, with cars with N47 engines in them (in date range), and only one of them, yours, has gone pop and, I am sure, most of the other ten receive much less care than yours has. Mind you, I’ve told a few of them about your experience. None of them were aware and there was some anguished looks and tugging of collars. :-D

    I shall step down from the horse now, and find some other way of avoiding royalbabymania.

    "Who do you think is the most capable?"

    "Capable of what?"

  • #85235 Reply

    Mollers

    Hi – I am having the same problem now with an X3 on a 57 plate. I have found out there is an outstanding recall or as they like to call it a ‘quality enhancement’ on the vehicle that I was not made aware of. Do you think this improves my chances?
    Many Thanks
    Ian

Reply To: Amazing luck

You can use BBCodes to format your content.
Your account can't use Advanced BBCodes, they will be stripped before saving.

Your information:




Lost Password

Share
Tweet
Share
Stumble
+1